Curse

lursey · Jun 05, 2011, 05:58 PM // 17:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kanyatta

Almost everything you've said in this entire thread is wrong, and this was the final straw. PvP isn't declining because builds are too diverse, PvP declined as soon as real life rewards stopped being offered for competitive GvG'ers. Even as late as 2007 they still had freaking laptop and mouse rewards for the MAT winners, and as soon as they stopped doing that, there was no reason to want to play anymore, especially after Anet nerfed the shiz out of everything except the meta builds.

Your idea would make everyone totally abandon HA. It wouldn't encourage anyone to play it, because it would just be the best BBway team winning Halls and holding it until they didn't feel like it anymore, at which point the 2nd best BBway team would hold Halls. Any casual pick-up group wouldn't have a chance at winning a single match anywhere. No one would play anymore.

Please, someone lock this thread. It's just trolls trolling some other troll's terrible troll idea.

ha declining is because many skills and maps rotation being introduce to the complexity.

gvg is another story....

and the bbway team example is just one of the situation that can happen....

but my suggestion will let players to get experienced faster than with the current HA situation....

Missmelady · Jun 05, 2011, 06:01 PM // 18:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by lursey

ha declining is because many skills and maps rotation being introduce to the complexity.

gvg is another story....

and the bbway team example is just one of the situation that can happen....

but my suggestion will let players to get experienced faster than with the current HA....

How long ago was the last map introduced into ha? At least 2 or 3 years... This is invalid argument again.

lursey · Jun 05, 2011, 06:06 PM // 18:06

my suggestion will let player to become experienced faster than the current situation is because

1) causal player don't have to care about different build early on without fighting till the hoh maps

2) causal player can vs other player with the same builds, when 2 same builds verse is easier to test to see which teams players's skill are better, than focusing on build...which you are right, the current situation focus too much on build, but ultimately is the player's skill say.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Missmelady

How long ago was the last map introduced into ha? At least 2 or 3 years... This is invalid argument again.

it's been declining basically since faction, with introduce new skills... then later with the change of maps... then later night falls skills and more maps ..

Shayne Hawke · Jun 05, 2011, 09:46 PM // 21:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by lursey

the winner of HOH can obtain a token to have an option to setup the bars or remain with the old bars for the whole guildwars community.

who wins, who is the boss, it is more interactive, can be who wins the most in the same day, who has the most token in the week etc to fix the bar.

the whole guildwars HA uses the same build by the winner

players who wishes to change the bars, must fight along and win the creator of the skill bars to obtain the token.

I'm not very clear on what your idea is here exactly, so I'm going to spell it out again, and you can tell me if I'm wrong on something.

You want there to be some kind of prize for winning HoH that allows a team to set up a build for all teams in the arena to run. The team that sets the build is determined by whatever team gets the most tokens in a day, or a week, or something. To change the build, other teams must run this build and win in HoH more than other teams in the given period, after which they will be given the choice to keep the old builds or change to a new one.

It is unclear when and how this change of builds would take place, unclear whether people who wish to change these builds really have to fight the team that created those builds, unclear whether builds are established individually for each profession or as a team of eight, and unclear whether the build that is used with this change is the build that the winning team was (it seems like this wouldn't necessarily be the case, because if it was, we'd be stuck with the same build every time!).

Now,

What's to stop teams from enacting worthless or troll builds (Frenzy, Flare, six empty slots for every bar)?
Why should players be forced to play these same bars every game?
What is to be done about teams who would farm these tokens at dead hours of the arena and possibly hold a monopoly over the arena's builds?

I assure you that all three of those points are negatives to this system, and you won't see anything like this implemented unless you have a decent answer to these questions.

Quote:

if it is good build, it will stay longer than other, and anet developer don't really have to spend time making the fix bar themselves.

This is not something that would happen. ANet isn't about to let players choose force other players' bars to be X, Y, or Z before they can even participate in something. In fact, not giving ANet the chance to choose what bars would be valid in this system is almost begging for there to be imbalanced or clunky builds somewhere.

Quote:

causal players can still practice skills, and maps, and have more focus knowledge of builds and skills.

Casual players don't belong in HA, end of story.

Quote:

the fun is even crap builds can be run in HA, as all other players using the same build

Why would we want crap builds to take over the arena? They're crap. They shouldn't have any place in the arena to begin with.

Quote:

causal players do not really have to spend 10 hours making the build, and lose in 1 min, without knowing whats went wrong.....and quit, and blame on other players skill, but actually the build is inferior than other teams.

causal players will simply just used the fixed bar, and do not really have to care about the skills with all sort of opinions that really don't help anything in the team...as most of the time in a group usually is the leader who gives the build, and pug and players will mainly copy it and run it...

See above comment about casual players.

Teams are still going to disband if they're bad and they keep losing, and this will happen often since there will always be high ranking players to stomp low ranking players. By setting the bars to be the same for both sides, you almost guarantee that low level players will never win and high level players will never lose. This is part of why the arena is dying, because low ranking players are getting thrown in against high ranking players, and they don't feel like sticking around to lose forever. No low level players coming in means no influx of players to sustain the format, and the arena slowly dies. Your suggestion, as pointed out by others in the thread, will do nothing but speed up this process.

Quote:

True that it will decrease complexity, but complexity and barrier to entry should also be balanced...either is too extreme, will just be meaningless as a game for players to stay playing.

Your suggestion throws the barrier of entry even higher. It's already too high as it is.

melissa b · Jun 05, 2011, 10:10 PM // 22:10

Part of the fun to HA is designing builds, and adjusting them as needed or if a new skill update comes along. Learning to build good skill bars is another important part of HA and lets people strategize. I think many people wouldn't be interested in HA having fixed bars because it would simplify it too much.

/1 Star This change would hurt HA player numbers and stifle build creation

lursey · Jun 06, 2011, 02:46 AM // 02:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shayne Hawke

What's to stop teams from enacting worthless or troll builds (Frenzy, Flare, six empty slots for every bar)?
Why should players be forced to play these same bars every game?
What is to be done about teams who would farm these tokens at dead hours of the arena and possibly hold a monopoly over the arena's builds?.

barriers to entry will be lower because my suggestion is now more on personal skills of builds, than builds around personal skills, maps and maps....

causal player in a sense that who do not normally spend time making builds, take Magic the gathering for example, you can build your own deck for 1 to fight another, now in HA the leader is building a deck for 8 person, 1 decide a deck for 1 is far easier than building a deck for 8 different opinions, skilled persons, that meaning, usually is 1 leader(hardcore player who decides build), with 7 causal players(who doesn't decides build)

a more concrete design of my concept

1) everyone stand in HA waiting for games,
2) leader can gather pug/players/guilds into groups
3) they are issued with the winner's designed skills bars for 8, the group, that are ready to press "enter the mission"
4) the leader has to design a set of 8 player skills in the case of winning hoh, he/she can choose to change for the whole HA community
5) the pug/players, can choose their leader by looking at their leader winning skill bars, if they like it, they stay with that leader, if they don't they can form another group/winning skills bar
5a) this is because, good winning bars will attract more supporters, pug/players who disregard making builds if they don't want to make it, can join any leader, without caring the problem of different builds, they have to use to verse different builds at the early stage of the game...

so it will become the situation like

UW---AAway vs AAway
temple --AAway vs AAway
Forgotten Shrines ---AAway vs AAway
courtyard --AAway vs AAway
Antechamber --AAway vs AAway
hoh -AAway vs AAway (winner, AAway designer)

as it goes on, when AAway designer lose, because of many reasons, as other players can be more skillful in playing the AAway because of so many time they have already played and failing with the same build a skillful AAway leader with a BBway builds won the AAway designer in hoh and choose to change to BB way

then it will become

UW---BBway vs BBway
temple --BBway vs BBway
Forgotten Shrines ---BBay vs AAway
courtyard --BBway vs AAway
Antechamber --AAway vs AAway
hoh -AAway vs 1 vs AAway (winner, BBway designer) or
BBway vs 1 vs AAway (winner, BBway designer)

THE bbway designer, can now at the hoh to test whether their BBway is finally at this stage with skillful players useful against other's AAway and even wth the winner's AAway playing style..

as times goes by, AAway will die down in HOH if the BBway designer can maintain their winning in hoh

so eventually, it will become only the HOH remains the final AAway winner but (bbway designer), because no other AAway is joining HA.

if the BBway build is an inferior build than AA way, and letting the only AAway constantly staying in hoh, it can be fixed by once the BBway is lose at the stage of HOH, then the designer of BBway will be forced to change to BBway bars at the stage of hoh and face other BBway

What's to stop teams from enacting worthless or troll builds (Frenzy, Flare, six empty slots for every bar)?

in this case, only winning team can make the so called "troll builds", and they have to use it back once it is lose to a superior build, then all the community will have a common ground....

a troll builds will not have enough supporter to begin with if there are enough competent players.

Why should players be forced to play these same bars every game?

players are forced to play these same bars, because most of the time in the current situation, it is only the single leader who choose to fix bar to recruit, and players are forced to play that single leader bars without even having the chance to practice the maps, etc, with the build, once they lose and they disband...., and when the leader fix their bars, they are forced by other builds, map constraints, which is a high barrier.

leader in my suggestion will not be forced to play these same bars, if he is a competent leader who wishes to change bars, they have to have a sufficient knowledge of the current bars by using the "forced build", this is only a barrier for the leader, but not for the players.

What is to be done about teams who would farm these tokens at dead hours of the arena and possibly hold a monopoly over the arena's builds?.

there will not be a monopoly of build, as eventually, all with the same build, and only the skillful leader of that build can decide the builds... so it is a monopoly of skill instead of a monopoly of builds, and if you want to hold continually HOH, you have to be a skillful AA build designer and user.

*lemming* · Jun 06, 2011, 03:21 AM // 03:21

Without having given this an excessive amount of thought:

What's stopping a winning guild from changing the currently active build to something like 4 monks, 3 defensive eles, and an interrupter as soon as they start holding, and just staying in there until they pass out"?

lursey · Jun 06, 2011, 03:27 AM // 03:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by lemming

Without having given this an excessive amount of thought:

What's stopping a winning guild from changing the currently active build to something like 4 monks, 3 defensive eles, and an interrupter as soon as they start holding, and just staying in there until they pass out"?

there is nothing to stop if he is the winners with enough supporter, and eventually he has to use it and everyone is using it, but only the one who use it with the most skill will keep holding or change to another build.

the barrier for creating this kind of skill bars are

1) having to play with the other build
2) having enough supporter to that build
3) once they change they have to use it in order for them to hold at hoh when the def designed build is used by other team and lose to them.

vitorvdp_68 · Jun 06, 2011, 04:58 AM // 04:58

Half of your sentences don't make sense, Mr. Lursey.
Now take a good look at this:
"4 monks, 3 defensive eles, and an interrupter"

These ultra defensive builds that could possibly happen would mean each battle lasts pretty much the full timer.

Crap idea, broseph, just drop it.

lursey · Jun 06, 2011, 05:14 AM // 05:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by vitorvdp_68

Half of your sentences don't make sense, Mr. Lursey.
Now take a good look at this:
"4 monks, 3 defensive eles, and an interrupter"

These ultra defensive builds that could possibly happen would mean each battle lasts pretty much the full timer.

Crap idea, broseph, just drop it.

so what?, you can make a 4 monks 3 def ele, an interrupter now, it doesn't make any difference, but people don't do it, or it will be washed away very quickly even if they made it, with little supporters.

and that's what make the positioning more important if 2 def builds are versing, especially in relics, capture point

Bright Star Shine · Jun 06, 2011, 02:18 PM // 14:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by lursey

so what?, you can make a 4 monks 3 def ele, an interrupter now, it doesn't make any difference, but people don't do it, or it will be washed away very quickly even if they made it, with little supporters.

and that's what make the positioning more important if 2 def builds are versing, especially in relics, capture point

They don't roll that because it can't win anything. The only thing you'll be doing is creating battles that last for ever, no one would be able to win in UW or Fetid River for example, because they just simply can't kill anyone.

I'm stunned that you don't see the idiocy of your own idea. This game is built around making the best builds, being the best at using them and being innovative and creative with team setups. You would kill the entire idea of this game.

And don't come saying that the barrier of entry is too high. PvX gives a couple of decent builds you just need to copy paste and are ready to use. And if you're so stupid that you can't come up with own builds, YOU DON'T BELONG IN PvP. Period. End of discussion. Fixing builds isn't gonna help ANYTHING or ANYONE.

lursey · Jun 06, 2011, 03:09 PM // 15:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bright Star Shine

They don't roll that because it can't win anything. The only thing you'll be doing is creating battles that last for ever, no one would be able to win in UW or Fetid River for example, because they just simply can't kill anyone.

I'm stunned that you don't see the idiocy of your own idea. This game is built around making the best builds, being the best at using them and being innovative and creative with team setups. You would kill the entire idea of this game.

And don't come saying that the barrier of entry is too high. PvX gives a couple of decent builds you just need to copy paste and are ready to use. And if you're so stupid that you can't come up with own builds, YOU DON'T BELONG IN PvP. Period. End of discussion. Fixing builds isn't gonna help ANYTHING or ANYONE.

do you realise how long the fix builds will get changed in an hour?, you can count the number of games in hoh.

so it is not really a fix bar in a sense that for the leader build maker if he is competent.

if you say it is a fix bar, does a leader gives you a bar to run is fixed?

and when you say the fun is build wars not skill wars, my concept doesn't undermines that, however the current problem of HA, not many competent build makers, even in a group, how many will really make a build that can suits different players and works? and in HA why would any 8 players help you to test a build?

in HA, the leader create the whole build for the group, not 8 single bars from each individual mind create for themselves...

1 build 8 players playing the build...if you make a build, you have to find enough supporter to run that build efficiently, how to determine whether the build can be run efficiently, only when the players skills and builds of 2 teams are similar, and at the current HA design, both of them are varies, especially too focusing on builds at the early stage which is putting off the other 7 players of the team if the build doesn't work. I think this is a very important factor is because, the other 7 even with the 8th player didn't make the build most of the time....they didn't make the build, and want a build war...how is it gonna work? best build with bad players is not going work either....

you say that build should be the most important factors, then why would you still give that power to a non-competent builder so early on the stage of HA without him/her actually having player skills to fool with the teammates, that is the main reason most of the time which put off players.

builds are important, but players are more important in HA, if no players, no matter you have 100 working builds, no one will play.

if you think it is buildwars should be encouraged, then all the players who doesn't make the builds in HA are casual, because they are focusing on the wrong aspect, they should focus more on making builds, than training skills/map/ pvp, which the fact is not the case.

Moreover, I just don' t understand why you would think they will roll the def build in my concept if they are not rolling at the current HA, as you have figured out there is not enough supporter to run def builds, if there is, current HA will already be filled with def builds and players.

perhaps you can say the winner and designer will make it for fun to the whole community
...but first..
1) even once it is on the HA arena...it will only be a wave of through out all the maps of HA, if there is not enough supporters and people hate def build, the next winner will simply change it into another..
2) the maps will help to adjust the builds. and winner, don't forget that hoh is 1v1v1 with all maps rotating.

while you think everyone is making def build, I will differ that more different builds can be appeared in HA finally

vitorvdp_68 · Jun 06, 2011, 03:25 PM // 15:25

"do you realise how long the fix builds will get changed in an hour?"

So here are the two possible scenarios:
1) You choose not to play with the current build because you don't like it.

2) You choose to try it out. Then suddenly, as you start to get the grip of it, BAM. It changes. Who the hell wants that? And what if it changes while you are playing? Does your build change for the next match when you win, so that you basically have a few tens of seconds to figure out how to use your build?

Reading your posts hurts my brain.
Get this:
You DON'T force people to use builds they don't want. PERIOD. End of discussion.

lursey · Jun 06, 2011, 03:32 PM // 15:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by vitorvdp_68

"do you realise how long the fix builds will get changed in an hour?"

So here are the two possible scenarios:
1) You choose not to play with the current build because you don't like it.

2) You choose to try it out. Then suddenly, as you start to get the grip of it, BAM. It changes. Who the hell wants that? And what if it changes while you are playing? Does your build change for the next match when you win, so that you basically have a few tens of seconds to figure out how to use your build?

Reading your posts hurts my brain.
Get this:
You DON'T force people to use builds they don't want. PERIOD. End of discussion.
You don't need to spend a lot of time creating a build if you are a beginner. There's quite a few builds in PvX to choose from.

the build once you enter will stay until you lose, or you defeat your designed build if in hoh.

no one is forcing people to use builds they don't want to, as you can have already realised, they can either win or choose to opt out the current build.

no one need to spend a lot of time creating a build, but not many people will join you, besides, the diversity of builds in pvx is only a few designated meta.

vitorvdp_68 · Jun 06, 2011, 03:41 PM // 15:41

"they can either win or choose to opt out the current build"

So there will be less players... thus you invalidate your own point.

lursey · Jun 06, 2011, 03:42 PM // 15:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by vitorvdp_68

"they can either win or choose to opt out the current build"

So there will be less players... thus you invalidate your own point.

how does that lead to less players if more people can play easier?

so that doesn't predict anything

vitorvdp_68 · Jun 06, 2011, 03:45 PM // 15:45

I'm pretty sure players opting out = players deciding not to play. And I'm pretty sure that means less players. And I'm pretty sure you have no idea what you are talking about.

No need to discuss anymore, unless you want more people criticising your stupidity.
Kthxbai

lursey · Jun 06, 2011, 03:52 PM // 15:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by vitorvdp_68

I'm pretty sure players opting out = players deciding not to play. And I'm pretty sure that means less players. And I'm pretty sure you have no idea what you are talking about.

No need to discuss anymore, unless you want more people criticising your stupidity.
Kthxbai

even it is opt out, it is opting out the current winner builds....and some will join in... because of the chance to change the build factor.

the matter is, will the build change like 5 times in an hour, possibly, but even so at UW both teams are using the same build.

which is so much better than current situation, that the common ground of build is random at the any stage.

Bright Star Shine · Jun 06, 2011, 04:52 PM // 16:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by lursey

even it is opt out, it is opting out the current winner builds....and some will join in... because of the chance to change the build factor.

the matter is, will the build change like 5 times in an hour, possibly, but even so at UW both teams are using the same build.

which is so much better than current situation, that the common ground of build is random at the any stage.

How in the name of everything that is sane is your idea better than the current situation? What you would create is a situation where the current HoH holder would make a build they are most likely the best at at running, thus annihilating any chance of an opposing party to win.

I'm gonna make an analogy here, so I can try to get through that thick, very, very thick mind of yours.

Let's say you have a real life situation where you have small competitions with each other. The one who wins the most is obviously the current winner and holder. Let's say you have a professional athlete, a professional armwrestler, and a professional spear thrower. The competition starts with 3 random things, let's say chess, because there used to be a chess player involved, but he decided to go do something else. The armwrestler wins from both the spear thrower and the athlete and thus becomes the winner. He can now choose what match the others have to play to win. Guess what he's gonna choose: that what he's best in: armwrestling. The other 2 guys will never be able to win until he decides that he's bored and has farmed enough fame in Halls to peace out. Then the Spearthrower who has a better arm than the athlete might win, and of course is gonna choose spear throwing.. Are you seeing the problem here? Your system is so easily abused that it's ridiculous.

Also, ever heard of artistic freedom?

How can you not understand that having a better build than someone else is the entire god damn point of PvP??? Are you really that stupid or are you just pretending?? Cause this is really beyond me..

*lemming* · Jun 06, 2011, 11:49 PM // 23:49

This whole talk of "supporting" leads me to believe that you don't think that organized groups win halls 95% of the time.